i personally thought that the bible was written with self assurance in mind to promise a good life to those who followed it, in order to better face the unknown of death. i dunno though. o_O;

Wow. I don't even know where to start. You brought up several excellent questions and usually with questions like those I like to talk to the person face to face. But I shall do my best here. Or at least I hope to make you possibly ask the questions differently. I think you have a good, but one-sided (literally), view of love. First, love is a two-way act. You can love a person for who they were, are and will be, but that does not mean that it will be reciprocated. For love to be fulfilled, it has to be there in all parties. So maybe in your issues with God not appearing to be loving all unconditionally you should concentrate on what humans are doing in NOT giving love to God. He loves us all unconditionally otherwise he would not have sent Christ to die on the cross for ALL humanity, even the ones that in the end will reject God's love. I think that is the key. The ones who are not saved choose to reject God's unconditional love which is found in his Son. We cannot love god to the same extent that he loves us because we keep sinning and losing faith in Him. But that is the beauty of grace. It fills the void between what love we do give and won't we will not, but should give to God. Those who reject Him completely do not love him at all, therefore grace cannot be given to them unless they turn toward Him.

As for Calvinism and predistination, I have fought against this idea my whole life to no avail. I don't think it works the way Calvinists think it does but I also don't think that predestination is wrong. I believe in both free will and God's sovereign plan. I believe this because it states in the Bible that he uses all for the good of His purposes, even the bad and the sinful. God does know what we will do, but that is exactly it. Just because He knows we will do it does not mean that it was not free on our part. He is the past, present and future and all actions are present to him. He sees every person's choices and actions and He sees them FREELY CHOOSE those actions whether they be out of faith in Him or not. He knows that certain people will NEVER accept His love and therefore their heart is hardened because they never would have freely chosen it in the first place. I think that is pains God to do this. He loves his creation and He wants them to FREELY come back to Him, but he knows that some won't and so the natural consequence of that is a hardened heart. I think where you might be having a problem is assuming that the fault lies with God instead of looking at where the fault might lie in man. Man has the ability to enter into a full love with God, but if he doesn't ever Freely Choose to then there is no other choice for God but to harden his heart.

This may not help you at all and I would have to make an outline to actually make my arguments valid and sound but hopefully you find some things to think about here. Very good questions and never quit asking them! Also pray to God about it, He will find a way to get an answer to you. But you have to be listening, just like you have to try and Love Him in order to feel the full effect of His love.

The problem with Romans 9 is that it cannot be read as a standalone passage. If it is, it sounds a lot like Paul is saying tha God creates some people specifically so that he can damn and destroy them to show how powerful he is. Calvinists like John Piper and R. C. Sproul ,of course, would say that this is exactly what God does, and that it's cool. But if you read Romans ignoring the chapter divisions as just one long letter, it will become more apparent that Paul is not talking about individuals' souls OR about eternal salvation. He is talking about national vocations, specifically about Israel (which is why he is quoting jeremiah and Malachi) and the gentile nations.

The context for this is that many Jews claimed that Paul's gospel about Jesus couldn't be true, because God would never make any other nation the bearer of his message. So Paul quotes their own prophets as saying that God carries on through whomever he wants to, and specifically cites Jacob and Esau, since Esau was the elder brother and should have carried on the birthright, but God chose Jacob instead.

But maybe more importantly, in the end Paul says that God is basing this decision not on a whim, or on some predestined reality he made up before time, but on the actual choices that the Jews living then and the Gentiles living then had made. He says, "Gentiles, who did not strive for righteousness, have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith; but Israel, who did strive for the righteousness that is based on the law, did not succeed in fulfilling that law. Why not? Because they did not strive for it on the basis of faith, but as if it were based on works."

So, like the commenter above me is saying, God has mercy on some and not on others because of the decisions that they make.

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But to the bigger issue. I don't think that scripture teaches that because of Adam and Eve, each person is born with sin, like it's passed from mother to child like an STD. It's just that Adam and Even changed the fundamental nature of the world by their actions. You're born neutral - not full of sin, but not in relationship with God, either - but born into a world controlled wholly by sinful structures. So everyone is separated from God, but it's by their participation in a world they can't avoid. That's why the way of Christ stands as an alternative to the way of the world.

Of course, some Christians are quite convinced that scripture teaches that in the end, nobody goes to hell. Otherwise, God would be lacking in love, or in effectiveness. But that's a different discussion, I guess.

I'll be interested to see where your thoughts go from here.

-NDSR

Simply put, God does know what we will do, but he does not interfere with our free will. Everything we do is our choice.

God knows if one will be saved or not. God blesses us, but also tests us. He admonishes us because He loves us.

It is not wise to assume that once things go south, it is because God doesn't care. It could be for a number of reasons, and any of which you should react appropriately: pray, ask for forgiveness, inspect yourself, and do your very best to improve yourself in your obediance of His commandments.

Don't make things complicated, because they're really not! God will return His love to you if you obey with a humble heart.

Wow, I am impressed with your questioning. IT is so good to question things that we read in scripture. I truly believe it is one of the best ways we grow to know Christ more.

First of all, love is not something we necessarily feel. I know that's not what we want. We want to be able to feel it, see it in every way. Love I believe is an act of faith. God loves us. It is shown simply by the fact of you waking up each morning. The sun rising. The beauty of His creation. Of course we can't necessarily feel this love. But love is a choice not a feeling. God chooses to love us. Which is definitely beyond my comprehension. He is faithful. He does not break hearts. I will pray that God will pour out His everlasting love upon you. So that you know it in each and everyday, not just feel it. Of course the definition of love is not clearly defined. The closest we have is 1 Corinthians 13. The verse in that I hold onto dearly is "Love NEVER Fails."

Secondly, that verse does bring up a lot of questions. Make sure to look at the context of the verse and what is around it. Not just the verse itself. Also, ask this question, is the verse to be taken literal or not? Scripture can be very confusing. It is good to ask questions. That shows to me maturity. Seek out God and the truth will be revealed.

I don't know if any of this helps, but they are just some thoughts.

Also, thank you for your encouraging words to me. I appreciate them dearly.

Have a wonderful weekend!

This why I stopped being Catholic a long time ago. The Old Testament made sense. God was directly and physically in your life having an active hand in helping his whorshipers while affirmatively destroying their enemies of his chosen people. God was whimsical, tempermental, prone to random acts of both extreme kindness and cruelty. The Old Testament God feels very human. Plus, the only thing you must do is OBEY. That's all God wants, end of story.

Suddenly Jesus comes around and religion becomes a Santa Claus story. God is this wonderful person who wants nothing more than to give you presents if you're good, but if you're bad...you get coal. He's omnipresent, omniessent, ever vigliant, and keeps his of gold stars and time-outs. The fantasy and hypocricy, and tsunami of inconsitencies were too much for me to reconcile.

Way to open a can of worms.

Couple of, “First off’’s,
1) Hi, I’m Lee.

2) Struggle, wrestle. Luther had a hard time with Paul and said, “I laid hold of Paul and beat him into submission,” (Something like that) referring to his struggle with the book of Romans.

3) sorry this is so long. i just have a lot of thoughts on the subject.

Ok. Soooooooo. This is an issue I struggle(d) with VERY hard (freewill v. predestination, what is love?, what is God’s love to us? Etc). I nearly threw what I believed Christianity to be out the window. And you may have to as well. That’s ok, God’s big enough to handle that.

I have to disagree that God is lacking in love. One of the things I’ve discovered about love as I’ve grown in my understanding of it (which we all do our entire lives) is that often times, it doesn’t appear as we would assume it to appear. It’s more of a sobering reality than a romantic (not the love-dovey sense of “romantic” but rather the very-based-on-feelings sense of “romantic”).

I looked up the word for “love” used in john 3:16 one time and found the definition of that particular Greek word for love as saying, “giving according to the need rather than the desire.” So question: What is our greatest need? Is it really love? Is it really to be accepted for who we are? Is it really to be cared about? Is it really to not be harmed? All these are good and SHOULD BE VALUED. They are needs, but they are not our greatest need. Our greatest need to worship a being (such as, perhaps, God) who is actually worthy and can sustain being worship (by contrast, we are not made to handle worship. Humans suck as objects of worship. So do boyfriends or girlfriends [also humans], or football, or your favorite food, etc).

So with that in mind, let’s take a look at the state of our heart. If you believe what you said, that you are automatically a sinner (which I agree. I am too. Always a pleasure to meet people with similar circumstances), then tell me, what is it that a sinner is most desirous of? Justice? Righteousness? Selflessness? In man’s sinful state he never chooses god (and that’s a controversial point I know but I believe it’s Biblical for whatever that’s worth.) So really, if I will never chose god outside of a sovereign act of God, I have no hope of ever finding any kind of joylifepeacefulfillment ever. SOOO (stick with me) then what is so wrong with God saying, “all these people have disgraced what is good and right and just and gone against my holiness therefore I will destroy them all. I mean if you really want justice in this world, then you want your own damnation because the greatest atrocity is NOT flying planes into buildings, or brothels, or millions of minds lost to drugs, it is the defiling of God’s holiness. It is looking at god, saying, “I know you say that your way is good and righteous but f--- you and I think I can do things better and more fulfilling MY way (without you).” But take a look at what our way has brought about (the aforementioned list of atrocities.) so then when we see the gravity of our naturally sinful hearts and the horridness of sin, when god decides to have compassion on whom he has compassion and it happens to be me (for whatEVER reason) I don’t argue. I worship. Really all these questions your asking, go back to, “how bad is my sin? Is it really that bad? How holy is god?” but please don’t take my word for it (for as bold as your post is, I doubt you would anyway).

Moving onnnnnnnnnn…

Wrestle with it. question it. fight it, but it is a solid wall of truth. Hate it spit on it. but the more you are honest with the depravity of the heart of mankind and honest about the goodness of god (“goodness” meaning both kindness and morality) the more the need for the cross grows in your mind and the more willing you are to accept the reality that only god soveriegnly cauing you to chose him could have brought you to repentance and salvation.

And think about it, what if god was so beautiful to sinners (rather than scary and mean) that all he had to do was reveal himself and men desire him? what if all they had to do was have an accurate view of him to 1) see their need of a savior and 2) fall deeply in love with him. Is that true?

So ultimately, what if the greatest act of love ever shown, was god giving us according to our need rather than our want. What if the cross wasn’t about you as much as it was about the glory of his name, and by his love somehow we get to see his glory, we get to worship him. We get to love him, we get to rest in the one who is perfectly trustworthy. We know the one who will always be perfectly morally good. we know that he will never sell out by suddenly valuing anything more than that which is most valuable (which is himself, eh?). What if we get our minds away from this idea that God is all about making much of us, and move toward the idea (/truth) that he is all about making much of him, and somehow we get to share in that?

Now it sounds egotistical that God is all about worship of himself. But how is it that we are so apt to lay praise on the firemen and cops of 9/11. And we root for Jack Bauer. Anyone who is all about justice and service of others is someone we praise. Yet we say God is selfish and power hungry and self-centered. But when you think about it, he is the ultimate hero! He is most committed to justice! Look at the cross. He is most committed to mercy. Look at the people he interacted with. He is most committed to righteousness. Look at the Bible! Yet we for some reason shy from wanting to honor him thinking he’s just an arrogant prideful God. He’s not though. He’s humble. (that’s another 30 minutes.)

That’s my point. Matt Chandler is a pastor from the village church in Denton, Texas and he has some thought out thoughts on this subject. If you want, his audio is on their website www.thevillagechurch.net and the name of the sermon is “are there two wills in god?” The rest of this letter is responses to specific things you said:

“I've never quite gotten why the rest of the world had to take the burden for what idiots Adam and Eve originally did.” Some people would say that, “oh you would have done the same too!” lame argument. Know one knows that. I mean it may be true but it hardly makes a good argument. I believe and this is seriously just personal belief (as opposed to biblically solid [though it may be {I don’t know}]) that contrast is the highest beauty. This world will never know the beauty of God’s mercy and grace if we never have a need for it, and once we do, only then will we see it displayed. I believe that’s what the rest of Romans 9 talks about. Yeah that means that God does allow/purpose for some people to never know him but in light of the fact that they full well deserve hell just like you and I, it’s still just.

“…be a sinner when I was born because Eve took a bite out of that apple?” God blames Adam for the entrance of sin in the world. Not Eve.

“Why did God choose to seperate himself from his creations completely because two of them made gigantic mistakes?” God didn’t separate himself from his creation. The natural consequence of sin is damnation (involving separation). You might consider it a prime opportunity to apply Newton’s law (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction) to theology.

“but why even bother creating us then?” That vessels of mercy might see his goodness and worship. That intelligent beings might know him.

“This very clearly states that God saves who he chooses, and rejects those who he doesn't” For one, I’m really glad you can say that (one cause its true), and second of all, ‘cause many people twist its meaning cause it’s uncomfortable. But even Thomas Payne recognized what you recognize, disagreed with Paul, and called him a blubbering idiot for this doctrine (or something like that).

“God gave us free will, he says it in his word.” Where?

“Doesn't that mean he decides who gets to come into his heaven?” Is heaven even the Goal? Do you think that Christianity is really about going to Heaven or Hell? Lemme ask you a question. If God wasn’t in heaven, would you still want to go? Why? What if Heaven wasn’t for people who were afraid of Hell as much as it was for those who love God and want to have the some way to continue to worship him after they start pushing up dasies?

“because he lets us find him,” Does he? “and Christ died to save all.” did he? Was that really his purpose in dying?

“Why would he harden anyone?” Most beautiful question of them all.

“It is so hard for me to comprehend this.” Wrestle! And it’s hard for anyone to comprehend this.

The reply by magniloquentia was my favorite because she found that in the end, when man becomes the center of the the gospel and our salvation is dependant on us, god becomes santa clause. Well said! I mean where she takes her conclusions is horribly flawed, but that’s neither here nor there. See, God is way more about his magnification rather than making everyone happy. That’s the difference between religion and reality. I think magniloquentia is closer to finding truth than anyone cause she has rejected this idea that god is looking for people to hand out presents to. Which means the next step for her is seeing that mostly a God fan. Not a me fan! Ah! how exciting!

Well that’s it for me. Mind you it’s taken me 4 years of really examining this stuff to be ok with Ro 9. And even still I struggle with it. Even still I fight it at times. Even still it doesn’t sit nice and rosey with me. But I feel confident that, as it did for me, the more you are willing to dig in and search this out, the deeper worship it will cause. Ask questions. Ask a million of them! And answer them as honestly as you’re willing to.

Also last thing (I promise), it seems like many people want to shove these beliefs (whether Calvinism or Armenianism) down your throat and its easy to reject everything cause of it. But I’ve found that this is BEAUTIFUL stuff to deal with. Our God is SO beautiful as you study this doctrine. Don’t allow Christianity to become something that must be explained just as well as a scientific theory at the expense of losing sight of the beauty of our God as the struggle becomes darkest. Don’t think Christianity is muddy and filled with holes and can only be true when I clear the water and plug all the holes.

Wrestle.

-lee

if you love someone..you dont let them go..you set them free.....

I will add my 2 cents here. Like one comment above said, you can't take Romans 9 and make it stand alone. 2 Peter 3:9 tells us that God's will is that not any should perish but that all should come to repentance. If it was only God's will that mattered we would all be saved. He has given us free choice as you mentioned and that is what causes many to be lost.

Also I don't think God abandoned us after Adam and Eve sinned. He simply had to withdraw and find another way to communicate with us humans. His presence would have destroyed us as sinful beings. He was still there working to save us.

Perhaps what it is emphasizing is that God WILL save those who he chooses. Maybe the meaning behind it is for people to understand if you have a good heart then God will save you. But I haven't read the bible not to mention I'm not even a cristian nor catholic. So thats just my guess =].